1st Lead U - Leadership Development
This podcast, now in Season 3, is dedicated to self-development, self-awareness, and learning to lead oneself so listeners can lead others well. If someone cannot lead themselves well, it will be difficult for them to be an effective leader of others. This podcast will help listeners understand what it means to 1st Lead U and build confidence in themselves and their leadership ability. Personal Growth Coach John Ballinger has spent 35 years developing the knowledge and material he shares with individuals, business owners, and leaders from a variety of areas.
1st Lead U - Leadership Development
An Interview with Sam Guthrie: A Lifetime of Leadership - Ep 311
A good leader can see talent. Oh yeah, and they can it's important for a leader. It is. It is important. And they can learn. If they're a good leader, they will develop that talent Right and pull even things that that person may not even see in themselves out of themselves.
Announcer:Welcome to First Lead you, a podcast dedicated to building leaders, expanding their capacity, improving their self-awareness through emotional intelligence and developing deeper understanding of selfless leadership.
John Ballinger:Hello America and welcome to First Lead you where we believe selfless leadership is essential. America is suffering a leadership crisis. Self-awareness and emotional intelligence is the key to developing selfless leaders. Now here is personal growth coach John Ballinger.
John Ballinger:Hello leaders and welcome to First Lead you. I'm John Ballinger, here with my trusted co-host, mr Douglas Ford. I was going to say sidekick, that sounds weird. Trusted co -host Mr Douglas Ford John. How are you thiskick? That sounds weird. Trusted co-host. Mr Douglas Ford John. How are you? This is the morning. I'm good, good, good, good. We have a special guest today. Excellent, love it when we have special guests.
John Ballinger:Yeah, I think we've, uh, we've had some good uh talk before the podcast. But, uh, sam Guthrie is our our guest today and I met Sam a couple of months ago on another podcast uh that I co-host called oath and pledge. It surrounds, uh, veterans and things that veterans have gone through, and there's a there's a brotherhood and a sisterhood to the veteran community. I I I jokingly say it's probably the largest fraternity in America. I jokingly say it's probably the largest fraternity in America If you think about the sheer numbers of people that are serving or have served, that are alive. It's a huge fraternity. And in this particular, on this particular podcast, we've got Marine, we've got Navy, we had Army and we had an Air Force guy recently that we just raked over the Colts. I mean that poor guy, sam, you weren't there, but I'm telling you we tore that old boy. Yeah, we were talking about how well they had it and how cushy and the food they got to eat.
John Ballinger:They didn't know what an MRE was in the air force or anything like that. But, uh, one of the things that, uh, that I was thinking about after I left that podcast and I actually messaged Sam and said, sam, I'd love for you to be on First Lead U is because of some of the story that he told about his military background when he went into the Pentagon. He was in the Pentagon when the plane hit at 9-11, how he reacted to that and what happened inside the Pentagon and just his kind of his leadership journey himself. And I thought you know he would be a great uh guest on our podcast. So we've been working for about and I'm a guy's busy as all get out retired, but we finally, after a few months, got them scheduled in here. So, sam, welcome to first lead you yeah.
John Ballinger:Yeah, thanks. So so let's uh, let's start out with tell us a little bit about Sam Guthrie.
Sam Guthrie:Well, uh, I'll start by uh, uh, saying my parents were both, uh, born and raised in Chattanooga, uh city, high school graduates of 51. My father went to West Point from high school and graduate class 55, came back married my mom and we've been migrant workers ever since. Both my mother and father are past now, but my father was in the army for 30 years.
Sam Guthrie:He got out, worked in industry for a couple years and then got called back into the military and civil service by Gordon Sullivan, who was the chief of staff in the army at the time and was a buddy of his, and so he did a little bit more time in civil service. So we moved around. I think when my parents were married 20 years they had moved 25 times. Wow, that's a lot. So anyway, my background as a child was military bases, dad being gone a lot, mom kind of running the household, a bigger brother that had to act like my dad when my dad wasn't around. He went to Thailand for a year, was in Vietnam for a year. So I had some times in the 17 years I was at home. You know I had two years that my father was completely gone and my big brother, four years older than me, was also another West Point grad and they convinced me not to go to West Point. They were scared I was going to burn the place down and for those that don't know, west Point is mostly granite, so that tells you a little bit about me, but anyway. So I had the background.
Sam Guthrie:I grew up eating last if I was in a group of people, because my father said you know, if you're an officer in the army, you know you and you know I'm a kid. He said, if you're an officer in the army, um, and you run out of food. That was your mismanagement, so you're the one that needs to suffer, not the troops. It's not their fault. So you always eat last, as an officer in the in the army at least and uh. And so I grew up with that kind of ethos. Um, uh, my father I considered a an extraordinary leader, um and uh, but um anyway.
Sam Guthrie:So my young life was moving around a lot. It was in the army. I came back to utc. I graduated from ut you in-state school, military family keep it cheap, but I loved it. I went to UTC for an interview and just loved it. So I went there and I got a degree in engineering and was in the ROTC department and graduated and was commissioned. My father commissioned our class. I came down and commissioned our class.
Sam Guthrie:So I went into the army in 82, spent 21 years in I'll characterize it for brevity's sake about half of it in tactical units and about half of it being a staff weenie. And my father told me you know, you're going to have assignments where you have to be in the staff and he goes when you're. If you're going to be on the staff, be a staff wiener be a really big one. So I. So I developed my own because of my experience as a child moving around a lot, which developed me in many ways. I mean, if you didn't, if you don't develop friends fast when you're moving every year, you never have any friends. So you learn there's a lot of goodness in that, but there's a lot of you know things that you cherish that other people have your, your, your buddies that you know are back home hanging out, you know going to the pub with your you know the guys that they grew up in high school with you. Just don't you know you don't have that. So I created my own regimental system where, when I had to be a staff wiener, I would go to the Pentagon and, um, I'd gotten a rotation of people, um, that you get kind of called back to those assignments when it's your time. So I did. I guess I did decent in my first assignment in the Pentagon and I just kept getting called back and we moved into the same neighborhood every time. So my son went to play T-ball, uh, little league, uh, juniors and JV and varsity baseball with the same kids, but we probably moved back and forth, I think three or four times to that area, but I developed that in him and again that has a little bit to do with some leadership. I mean, you're trying to figure out how to take advantage of lessons you've learned, experiences you've had and make what's coming up next better, and so for my son I tried to do that.
Sam Guthrie:You mentioned the Pentagon. I'll try to keep this brief and y'all can dig into it if you want to, but I was in the Pentagon on 9-11. I was in the D ring. So the Pentagon is made in rings. The outside ring is the E ring. That's where all the big shots are, because that's where all the windows are, because you can see out. That's where all the big shots are, because that's where all the windows are, because you can see out. And then all the other rings going into the center go from the E ring down to the A ring, which is the center ring. And so I was on the E ring talking to or actually I was on the D ring in my office.
Sam Guthrie:The plane started to hit the trade center. The first plane hit the trade center. We immediately knew it was not a piper cub, or probably. I mean all you had to do is take the dimensions of the world trade center and see how far the wings hit into the glass, and you knew it was a commercial airliner. And we knew a whole bunch of other data that told you on plane one this is not an accident.
Sam Guthrie:And so um went out to the E ring, uh talked to uh, general Kensinger, who was the assistant ops for the army, and uh, and so he got a call that caused him to need to go down to see the vice chairman of the vice chief of staff of the army, who was Jack Keane. If you watch Fox news, jack Dean is on there a good bit. He was the vice chief of staff of the army, who was jack keen. If you watch fox news, jack dean is on there a good bit. He was the vice at the time. So general kensinger was going to go down to the vice and report to him that all of the conus units were going to uh, force protection level delta. That means nobody in, nobody out. If, if your wife was out shopping, sorry about that she ain't coming into base until we sort some things out. So he went down to report that and he said meet me back here in five minutes.
Sam Guthrie:And so we walked back to the D ring, which is one ring in on the third floor, and a few minutes later the plane hit the building and we were actually in a location on the third floor where there are windows, but you only are looking through an alleyway at the other ring. You know it's not very exciting, but people used to go out there and smoke that was the old smoke break area and so what happened was we're standing there watching this on TV, we're figuring out what we're going to do, stand up, the Army Operations Center at full capacity, yada, yada, and all of a sudden, you know, know, you're falling to the ground. And out of one eye is you're watching cnn in new york on the tv, and out of your other eye there's this orange and black fireball outside the window, and ceiling tiles are falling in and you're falling to the ground. And the honest the honest to God, just stupid as this is is the thought that came to my mind was man, this is the most realistic TV coverage I've ever seen. And then, and then, and then you realize you're watching a movie, but you're in the movie. It's that kind of feeling, it's like that surreal kind of feeling.
Sam Guthrie:And so we just, you know, got everybody up, did typical nose count, see who's there, we can account for who we got to go find and then get out, because we were pretty close. It went right underneath our feet, it went directly underneath our office. So we got, took nose count, got everybody out and started following, uh, the fire escape plan. So this is, this is. I'll end it on this. So we're on the fire escape plan. Well, guess where? The fire escape plans tells everybody to go outside, in the middle, no, in the, yeah, outside, but in the middle of the pentagon, in the inside the a ring which is a courtyard where there's a little food hut. You can get sandwiches and stuff in there and trees, and people go out there to hang out at lunchtime. Well, they right, we used to call it the ground zero because we thought that's where the russians would drop a nuclear bomb. If they were going to drop one. My dad said that would be the dumbest thing they could ever do, because the best thing going for russia is the pentagon. But, uh, so, and and what?
Sam Guthrie:We as strategists I was a strategist, uh, at that time for the ops of the army, the operations officer, the I'm think of it as the coo of the army and a three-star. And so we're all planners and strategists and we're going like, at this point we know there's two planes in new york, and I'm going like, we're going like like, oh, my goodness, you know, this is, like you know, pretty sophisticated coordination, you know, and we thought, man, if there's two planes here, they may know that our evacuation plans from the first plane are going to cause us to all go in the middle, and then they're going to dive another plane into the Pentagon, into the courtyard in the middle. And you know, now you're going to get I mean the Pentagon's got like 30,000 people in it, you know. And so we got with the police, the Pentagon police, and and said, hey, you got to get everybody out of here, you got to get people in the parking lots in the out, the North and South parking lots on the outside of the building. And so we started to do, do that and got that done.
Sam Guthrie:And then, as we got out, uh, some police officer uh, well-meaning, but it was a it was a crazy kind of day, as you might imagine and he comes buying his car and is yelling out the window. There's a second plane Well, he's talking about the plane that ended up crashing in shanksburg I guess it is shanksburg, yeah, pennsylvania. And so we always we were going like, and at that time it was still in the air and and we were going like, oh man, that's coming here and uh, wasn't that the intention, though, when theyeren't they trying to get that one to DC?
Sam Guthrie:Yeah, I think it was going to DC. I don't think that's any question. There is some question about the targets, and so my guess is that they had several targets and they had their primary targets. But you can imagine flying a large aircraft and you, being an aviator, you know way better than any of us. Flying that large of an aircraft, not being an experienced pilot, and trying to fly it into an object ain't easy. And so I think what happened is the Pentagon may have been an alternate target, it may have been the primary, but the Capitol building seemed like the law, a logical, symbolic, you know kind of kind of thing. But you never know. I mean they, they, at some point the plane is where it's at, in the air and you know you're figuring stuff out, but I mean they hit the building and that's a, that's a, that's a miraculous, pretty miraculous feat. Wow. So that's crazy.
Sam Guthrie:Then I left, left the army. Uh, I retired in 2003 as a lieutenant colonel. Uh, uh, I was a happy camper. Uh, I left for family reasons and um, uh, I was promotable to Colonel um and just waiting on my number. But uh, we always say that family comes first in the army and at some point. You got to step up to that. You say that a lot as you walk out the door to go work till nine o'clock at night and miss everybody's bedtime. Right, but this was a decision I had to make. That that was clearly um important that I did that. So I got out. I was again very happy. I went to work for lockheed martin. I ran a about 150 it's very small for lockheed about 150 million dollar a year business systems integration business. So we did like like ground station to satellite integration kind of stuff. Um sold some comms equipment to the three lettered agencies, that kind of special stuff. Uh, and I did. I ran that line of business for for 12 years in lockheed, actually retired from lockheed.
Douglas Ford:I got a buyout from them uh, if you want to get back into that, I think Bowen's will.
Sam Guthrie:Yeah, that's a good one. And then I retired from there and then, as luck would have it and God would direct it, the day after I retired turned in my irrevocable retirement paperwork to Lockheed and had no idea where I was going to work next. Had no idea. The offer was just too good I could retire, get pension immediately and get a chunk of change. So I pulled the trigger and just went to bed that night wondering, boy, this is going to be kind of sporty.
Sam Guthrie:And the next morning my phone vibrated on my bedside table. And I call him a kid. It was a kid that used to work for me as a radio frequency engineer in Lockheed when I ran a line of business, and he just oozed in talent and so I did some things for him. Maybe we talk about later. Him, maybe we talk about later. But and uh, he was actually in singapore with the head of all cyber security and jb morgan chase, and he was the number two guy, and they had just gotten thrown out of the coo's office for their annual budget, which is, by the way, 750 million dollars a year just on cyber internal money protecting customers unbelievable. So they got thrown out of his office and they were trying to think of who could plan that for them and they both thought of me because I knew both of them from lockheed and uh.
Sam Guthrie:So the funny thing about this is the phone. The phone vibrated. He says hey, you know, uh, ever thought about moving to new york city? And I texted back and they had no idea had just retired. I texted back, said can you thanks? I said hey, you know, ever thought about moving to New York City? And I texted back and they had no idea I had just retired. I texted back and said anything's possible. And so a month later I was living in lower Manhattan on the 49th floor of a 76-story building, working at JPMorgan Chase as a cybersecurity strategist, working for Patrick Opet, who I told about 10 years before this text that someday I'm going to work for you.
Sam Guthrie:You've probably said that to people that have worked for you and I said that to him and he laughed at me and he's the one that ended up hiring you know that's a good, so a good leader this is.
John Ballinger:This is me saying this after being military and now in the civilian sector doing what I do with companies. But a good leader can see talent. Oh yeah, it's important. It is important. And they can learn. If they're a good leader, they will develop that talent and pull even things that that person may not even see in themselves, out of themselves, and it sounds like you did that Well it's funny because, again, radio frequency engineer.
Sam Guthrie:So he's an off the charts smart. You know, villanova grad, you know, I mean this kid is super smart, super smart, and he actually rebuilt a cellular system because he didn't like the way the vendor that we had partnered with was doing it. But anyway, so he expressed to me in some one-on-ones that we would have, you know one-over-ones, you know where you go, step above your boss and talk to the boss's boss, and so I would have that. And he wanted to learn the business. He knew that. You know, he couldn't be a technician all his life and do the kinds of things he wanted to accomplish in his life, and so I started giving him jobs that you know, and and the, the, the one that probably is the funniest and the most startling, I guess, for me was that I had this maybe $2 million bid that we were going to do for MEPCOM it was actually for the people that process people in and out of the army and so we had this contract. They were bidding for $2 million or something like that and so I made his buddy, who was my little business development guy, one of his best friends, another kid that worked for me I made him the capture manager of this RFP that the government had put out, and I made Patrick his chief engineer for the capture and I said if you guys win this, patrick, I'll make you the program manager. So they ended up winning it and, uh, and I made Patrick the program manager and it was a firm fixed price bid and we he bidded at 8%.
Sam Guthrie:Well, about eight months into that contract, I got a call from you know corporate headquarters, you know about hey, you know, we were just looking at this list of all the programs and you know, we see this program manager uh, that's, he's not, he's not a certified program manager in Lockheed Martin. And I said, oh, gosh, you're right. And he said, so, we're. You know, we're going to have to do about something about that. Have you got a replacement for him? I said, well, I said you want me to replace him? And he says, well, he's not qualified to be there. And I said, well, he's returning 12% profit on an 8% bid on a firm fixed price contract. Would you like me to still get rid of it? Oh, oh, uh, no, no, so so, uh, and oh and here we talking leadership.
Sam Guthrie:So in that bid they had miscalculated something, he and his little capture manager, buddy. They had miscalculated something by a bunch, I'll just say that. And so now their profit margin was getting ready to just get wiped out by this mistake that they had made. And it was just a mistake. There was nothing about it other than just a mistake. Patrick comes to me and explains this mistake as the program manager reporting to the line of business director.
Sam Guthrie:And he says you know, this is problem, this is how much we're short. And then he stops and I said okay, you got anything else? And he said well, you know, I. Just you know we got this problem. You know don't who's we? I said, I said I trust that you will figure that out, and he did. And he figured it out and still came in, like you know, probably 4%, you know 12. I think it was. He came in 12% on 8% bid.
John Ballinger:With fixing his problem.
Sam Guthrie:And fixed his problem. He is now actually the head of cybersecurity in JP Morganp morgan chase of all of jp, biggest bank in the world, 750 million dollars a year what if you and this is uh, this is to me what a lot of times what if you hadn't given them that chance?
Sam Guthrie:well, uh, it's funny you bring that up because, guess what? He was about to get fired by my at that time boss. Because I came into a job where my boss now was wanting to fire this kid and the reason was because this kid was so smart and this boss was a narcissist. He was not and he did not appreciate the fact that this young man was willing to stand his ground. On technical issues. It's okay to debate opinion, it's not okay to debate facts. And this kid, I mean he was wired for sound and he would constantly make this guy not look good. Another thing we developed in Patrick over time, because it's not a wise move to make your boss constantly look stupid. But, um, this guy was literally was about to fire him. I've had that happen twice.
Sam Guthrie:Once in the army a guy was a battalion commander before me. I need to be careful. Uh, there was a guy that was about to get fired. He ended up commanding a battalion and got promoted to 06. When he retired as an 06 and commanded a battalion I don't know if he commanded a brigade, but he was about to get relieved. I mean, he had destroyed on an OER. In fact he had OERs that I had Officer Efficiency Reports your annual report at least in the Army it's your annual report and he was getting destroyed on those by this guy and he was again just oozing with talent, needed a little polishing on how to interact with your boss, but you know, and so I kept him and gave him some you know opportunities that he probably wouldn't have gotten under the other person and ended up being a battalion commander and and uh and retired as a full colonel wow, let's take a break and we're going to come back and we're going to talk about.
John Ballinger:We're going to talk about leadership and what Sam's perspective on leadership was when he was in the military, even in the corporate world, and then what it's like today. So we'll be back.
Sam Guthrie:Great.
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Douglas Ford:Today we are here with Sam Guthrie. He's in the studio with us talking. We've been learning a little bit about his past. It's quite the exciting journey that he's been on and his leadership track, and now we're going to dig a little bit more into just his perspectives and thoughts on leadership. And so, john, I want you. I guess started with some questions.
John Ballinger:Sure Sam, before I go into the leadership. So what are you doing now?
Sam Guthrie:So I am rich, what I call it retired, retired, retired. So I technically actually retired from the army. After 21 years I technically retired and get a pension from Lockheed. I was 55 years, I was over 55 years old and had more than five years with the company when they offered me this buyout. So I retired technically from Lockheed and then I went to JP Morgan Chase and if you, if you can believe this if you're over 60 and have five years with actually in Lockheed, it was 10 years, In JP it was five years. So I was eligible for another pension out of JP and so I had a choice I could take lump sum or I could take $59 a year for the rest. And I was so tempted to take it just so I could walk around town and go. I got three pinch, but the tax paperwork was just. I thought, man, I don't need to have to do tax paperwork on 59 bucks a month. So I just took a look. But anyway, I'm retired, retired, retired.
Sam Guthrie:I'm married to Amy Morrow. She's the better part of our relationship, she's my best thing in my life, and my son, Wells, lives in town, Wells Guthrie lives in Chattanooga and I am actually, if you ask me what I'm doing now I am trying to figure out how I worked 60 or 70 hours a week and got anything in my personal life done, because, I'm telling you, just taking care of my personal stuff has me. But we're developing a piece of property down on Suck Creek where we're going to build a house hopefully one of these either next year or the year after. And I just finished accepting a nomination to be the stewardship council lead in our church, which is kind of like our board of directors, I guess, and so I've been getting involved in my church. I work up on the farm Amy's mom's place up in Cloudland and then I kind of split my time working there and working on the property and then spending time with my son and trying to enjoy, enjoy life.
John Ballinger:That's great, is uh, but, and I'm going to, I am going to start asking you quick is leadership important to you?
Sam Guthrie:It's. It is the most, it has been the most significant thing in my professional life and I would say in my personal life as well.
John Ballinger:Right, so, and you saying that about the church, we talk about four pillars of society that kind of hold up all societies going back to the beginning of times the family, the church, government, business, the church. All of those right now are crumbling or in need of help. Right, you stepping into that leadership role is so important the church.
Sam Guthrie:All of those right now are crumbling or in need of help. You stepping into that leadership role is so important. Yeah, and I'm going to be very transparent here I go to Trenton Methodist. Church, so I want to put out in Trenton, Georgia.
Sam Guthrie:I want to put out a little shout out, but we are a church that's kind of been like other churches. We were a lot bigger at one time. Things tapered off. We're now at about 125, I guess, but actually are starting to see signs of growth. We've used some techniques of picking and choosing how you approach getting people to be churched, to bring them into the church. But the honesty part is I told them I do not want to lead anything. I've been leading all my life. I would like to be an individual contributor.
Sam Guthrie:I'll be a really good one, but I did not want to lead anything, and that just you know. I prayed about it a lot. They came to me and asked me to do it and I prayed about it a lot. They came to me and asked me to do it and I prayed about it a lot, and the thought that occurred to me and I'll end it on this the thought that occurred to me was is god telling me in my prayers? Is god telling me hey, you punk, I didn't spend all this time developing you as a leader so you could take your pensions and right off into the sunset, okay, amen, amen.
Sam Guthrie:And that's what caused me to change my mind was I thought maybe he's, maybe that's what he's telling me, and so I'm going to give a shot at. You know, this is one that I've told him. I said hey, if you think I was a hard ASS in the military doing work for the government, just think of how I'm going to be working for God. So look out. But yeah, we've got a great church and a great bunch of people.
John Ballinger:You know Billy Graham and his last book at 93, was it was penned, but he said I made a mistake in the first chapter, which, when you're reading that book, it's called nearing home. Okay, and you're seeing, you see Billy Graham admitting fault, you're like. But he said his fault was that he retired. Oh, what he should have done is it's cut back, obviously, but he should have poured into men and and discipled men and mentored men, right, and he didn't do that.
Sam Guthrie:Well, you know that's an interesting, you know, in the evolution of a leader. You know you have to learn, you have to go into that risky area of relinquishing. You know, and delegating. You know, and and delegating, you know, and if you don't delegate you're going to fail as a leader. So you know, so you have to delegate.
Sam Guthrie:But that's risky because you're used to getting it done yourself and you know you could do a great job you know, but um, but that's a good point is that I see, as I've grown is more and more of my responsibilities became coaching others or teaching others, or, you know, helping others that are working for you, managing managers and that kind of thing, and and less of you know hands on doing so. I had gotten into the church on doing a lot of hands on stuff. I was working for almost every missionary. I was trying to help, you know, do things that needed to be done and that didn't work. So we'll see how this goes.
John Ballinger:So what do you think? Or have you seen a difference in leadership over your military career, your business career, and now pre COVID, now post COVID?
Sam Guthrie:Yeah, I, uh, I think it's a great question and, um, I'll unpack it, at least my version of it, kind of like this Um, I'm guessing, I don't know for sure, but I I'm in. The amount of time that I was a professional is about 39 years or whatever 38, 39 years. I probably managed five generations, four different generations of kids, of younger people, and we're all of an age where we've done that, but every one of them is different, and some people will say this generation is even more lazy than the last one. It's not that. In fact, I have found that everyone is more motivated and more talented than the previous generation, but they're motivated in different ways. Things that turn them on are different, and if you don't figure that out as a leader, and now you're managing a formation or an organization that has four generations in it and you're trying to figure out a leadership style, or what will turn on all the great? You're trying to figure out a leadership style, or you know what will turn on all the grit? Well, some of it's. You treat people like individuals and others of it are hey, we're a team and this is what we stand for. You know so, but I think working, you know, developing people later in your life becomes more and more of your responsibility as a leader in the organization, in the organization, um, and so I I sense in his answer that retiring he kind of short-armed, the you know, coaching other people that could, could benefit from his wisdom, um, the different.
Sam Guthrie:I think there's a you know over the generations, um, because um and you know the I won't, I won't blame COVID, but um, but that was like fuel on a fire that was already ongoing and the fire kind of was this you know individualism and and and not connecting with a team and a team identity as much. And so I think over time we have not, as people have grown from individual contributors to managers, etc. In the workforce, people have grown from individual contributors to managers, et cetera. In the workforce we have placed a lot of emphasis and fallen into the trap of thinking that rewarding individualism is how you're going to get somewhere as an organization, and to me that's the farthest from the truth. And and so you have to then realize that these people that are really focused on themselves in a lot of ways need to be taught the joy of the misery you go through with a few people. You put five army guys in an officer's club and I guarantee you one thing that will not happen that night. They will not tell a story about how great things went one mission. It's always the stories about suffering and how we did things together and boy, we got through it. Well, I think we were.
Sam Guthrie:You know, if we don't, as managers and leaders, if we don't instill that in people, they're not learning it these days. You know the way, the way it is. Everybody used to get some of that. You're on the little league team or you're. You know girls, you're on a uh, uh field hockey team or or anything you know, you're in choir or drama, but it's a, it's coming together, a whole bunch of people coming together to produce something bigger than the sum of the parts, and I don't think we teach that as leaders and managers very well. So what you've got now are challenges associated, and I said about covid. Well, covid, you know, has caused us to develop some habits like this whole um, uh, you know not in the workplace, right, and, and so I think there are challenges not in doing that.
Sam Guthrie:I were, I, I managed, uh, geographically dispersed organizations my entire career, some of them by push-to-talk radio, right, and so what's happening? In my view, what has happened over time and COVID kind of accelerated, it is it's highlighting the fact that we're not teaching leadership and situational leadership and things like how do I lead now an organization that is no longer going to be able to show up in the conference room where I can look them all in the eye? It's a different kind of leadership, it's a different kind of management style, and we just completely lost our marbles. You know, we just were worried about keeping people, not having them leave and be, you know, walking away from the job or you know whatever, and we, we just, you know, we're willing to give them anything, and and this whole idea of working from home. I, like I said, I've worked, you know, worked remotely, um, and and and a geographically dispersed workforce my entire life, and you just have. It's a different technique, and so I guess what I'm saying is that if you ask me what's the biggest challenge for managers today, versus what it used to be, is the biggest challenge for managers today is that they didn't have a good manager? Is the biggest challenge for managers today is that they didn't have a good manager?
Sam Guthrie:We now have people managing people who never had a person that actually managed, or much less a leader. And so we wonder why these people are falling on their face in management roles or leadership roles. And you look at them, you go falling on their face, you know, in management roles or leadership roles. And you look at them, you go hey, you know who's your mentor, you know who are name a couple of guys that you call when you get in a bind and you just want somebody to help you figure out how to get out of it. You know blank nothing, nobody, um, uh and and, uh. And if you, you know, go and account their job experiences and you look at what they've done. They just had no manager. And there's been bad managers in the workforce since Christ was a corporal. But right now what you have is you have managers that have no leadership experience, no management experience, because nobody invested in them. Because, why? Because they don't know. And why they don't know is a different question and I'm not sure I know the answer to that.
John Ballinger:Well, Douglas, we're going to go. This podcast is going to go long.
Sam Guthrie:I'm sorry about that.
John Ballinger:No it absolutely needs to and here's why. So I'm going to give you a history lesson. It absolutely needs to and here's why. So I'm going to give you a history lesson. When guys got back from World War II and the women had been left for three years to build the bombs, beans and bullets where Rosie the Riveter really came to be the men came home and said we're back, scoot over and the wives are like hold on a second. No, we've taken care of the kids, fixed the refrigerator, the car and work and built the bombs, beans and bullets. You can't just come back and insert yourself. Right, we're, we're here.
John Ballinger:That started a process of what what's referred to in society is the women's lib, women's movement and things like that, and the men started really taking a back seat, if you will, and I saw this happen when I was doing research.
John Ballinger:Even in commercials the woman would walk in front of the man and would be talking on the phone and the guys carrying the bags of groceries, and you would see this progression. And even in church, the women had committees and did things. And if you said, or what are the guys doing? I'm like nothing. And a lot of times the guys weren't even showing up to church. The women would bring the kids to church without the dads, and so you saw this erosion in leadership in the family, in the church, in business, and I say in government too, because what I've seen in my time around government is most of the people in government are people that have no business leading people because that's a leadership position, and we have people that are elected officials that aren't leaders, and so now you've got these four pillars crumbling because nobody has taught anybody how to lead themselves, much rather other people Right.
Sam Guthrie:And one of the fundamental at least in my mind, a fundamental leadership trait is that you set the example and a lot of these junior people that are now managers, they never had somebody that they could just copycat at a minimum. I used to say, hey, if you I say this in plans hey, if we've got the enemy and we can't figure out how to beat them, do whatever they're doing, get a draw and buy me some time. I mean right. So setting the example gives people at at a minimum, just something to mimic. You know, and and sometimes that's how you learn is you just first you mimic something that you think is is good and then you start to develop your own style and things like that.
Sam Guthrie:Well, they don't have, they didn't have good examples, they don't have anything to hearken back to my uh I use this word very loosely success that whatever success I had was because I am, I'm ADD, I've never diagnosed, but I know I've got it and I could not. I could not remember like, like, right now I just had a, you know. So I'm, I'm 80 day, but, but my ex but, but I could mimic, I could see good leadership I had. My father was a good example. I could see good leadership. I could mimic things and then I learned to adjust to my own style and that's how I developed, developed myself, and I think that people, um, young people, are starving for somebody to do what you the word, the keywords you use to show an interest in them.
Sam Guthrie:Um, and then, in showing an interest to them, you know you don't have to tell them what to do. I have a coffee cup guys gave me. It says I'm not going to tell you what to do, but here's what Guthrie would do. Right, you know I'm not going to tell you how to do it, captain, but this is your company and you're going to do this. But you know, I'll tell you what. I've seen this happen. I've seen that done 10 times. I've seen it done a certain way and it it didn't work every time.
Sam Guthrie:That's, that's, that's your advice Now, don't screw it up. See you later, um, but I think setting the example. And so you, you know this whole development issue. And how have things changed in the workforce and how? What are the challenges of managers today? I think it's a reflection of that erosion of different types. You've talked about a certain, a few types, and, and, and mine is just the breakdown in in fundamental, uh, you know the, the, the ecosystem, that the, the ecosystem that develops leaders over time is just not there, and so we've got people that are managing a good example.
Sam Guthrie:I used to have a rule, you know email when I was a battalion commander brand new, you know you know, not brand new, but it was.
Sam Guthrie:You know you could, you could use it, and so I I had to. I set up some rules and I said, hey, I said you know there's a hierarchy of communication. This isn't a good example, right, you know, set an example. This is how I feel about things, you know. You ought to probably feel about them the same way if you're in my outfit. I'm joking. But I said you know there's different forms of communication and it's a hierarchy. There's text, then there's a phone call, then there's a video call and then there's a. No, excuse me, there's a text, an email, a phone call, a video call and then an in-person call. And here's, here's what you need to know. When you back your truck out of your best friend's driveway and run over his hunting dog, don't text him when you tell him. That's something you tell somebody in person, right? So you know giving people leadership examples, you know, of how you feel about things. I I didn't have a law or anything, but people would know if they broke it in the way I responded. You know they send me a, send me a uh, an email. That's, you know, 90 pages long. I go on like, hey, this looks like a conversation, you know, um so.
Sam Guthrie:So I tried to over time, you know, try to, you know, set the example in organizations that I ran, and I just feel very badly for a lot of young people out there trying to be good managers that want to be good managers, want to be good leaders, but they don't have the back, they don't have the experience space.
Sam Guthrie:I mean. My old man used to say you are a reflection of your education, training and experience, and the only one of those three you can't buy is experience, and so leaders have to take that experience. That's why leaders are the old guys and gals right, because they've got the experience. And so you to take that experience. That's why leaders are the old guys and gals right, because they've got the experience. And so, you know, sharing those experiences in a way that allows them to build their database in their head of things that they can draw on. And my point about being ADD was my success is the success I've had is being able to take lessons and experiences that either I've had or someone else has shared with me and put them into my machine, that I stir it around to figure out what I want to do, and so that's. You know, the leadership role is to create that for somebody Right?
John Ballinger:You know the leadership role is to create that for somebody, but it sounds like a key component that you had period was that you cared about people that were under your oh yeah, if you don't yet forget about that's a manager.
Sam Guthrie:Okay, a manager is a control function. You know leadership is an art. You know management's a science and leadership is an art and you have, you know, and so there's a lot of good managers that are horrible leaders and there's some leaders that are pretty horrible managers, you know.
John Ballinger:But but yeah, I agree with that. I, you know, I. So I think one of the things that broke through that time, from world war two to really what we we also said that that that COVID just brought out something that had been there for more than a decade.
Sam Guthrie:It was. It was bubbling Right.
John Ballinger:Right, but one of the things is that leaders weren't taught how to truly care about their people. Yeah, and if you don't care and I'll I'll make this statement, and that's a hard and fast If you don't care about people, get out of leadership. Yep, period. Yep, because you have to and the people need to know you care. That's, that's what makes them want to follow you. Yep, is that you care?
Sam Guthrie:So so you have a military formation or organization, doesn't matter, but I'll use a military organization. You have a young buck sergeant and this is a guy that manages um, you know, in the army probably manages four or five people. A guy that manages, um, you know, in the army probably manages four or five people. So you got a young buck sergeant and he's doing really great things. But he is catching a rash from his peers and other people. But he's actually doing what he's running his little four-man outfit the way you want to. He's a good guy, good gal, whatever.
Sam Guthrie:So battalion commander walks by the 730 man outfit and he's one of 730 joes and in front, deliberately in front of everybody sergeant smith report he comes over, stands in front of you and you just say, hey, walk, walk with me for a minute. And you turn your back to L the troops you know everybody's watching, by the way and you go over and you talk to him and both of you tell a joke or something and he's laughing and you're laughing. Then you pat him on the back, he salutes you and he goes back to the formation. You've now, you've now changed that person's position as a manager and as a leader in that outfit, by that, by the, by virtue of people seeing the leader, the senior leader, showing interest in an individual, that person must be doing something right, and now I want to mimic that person.
Sam Guthrie:Those are the, you know, those are the, just simple.
John Ballinger:That's the art part of it. That's the art part.
Douglas Ford:It is, it's the art part. I mean you validated them right.
Sam Guthrie:Yep, and so picking out and, by the way, you have to think of these things yourself. Nobody, like you know you don't go to battalion commander school or COO or C CFO school or CEO school to you know. I mean, you have to develop that over time. Uh, in in your in and your style, and you have to create those, you have to concoct those. You have to innovate on leadership. You have to innovate on how to lead and and, by the way, who you're leading, what generation? What motivates them, what doesn't? Uh, you know, you better take into your calculus when you're, you know, figuring out these little techniques of how to inspire people.
John Ballinger:so you just said so. You didn't say this, but what you're alluding to is there's a psychology to leadership. Oh gosh, absolutely yeah, and I think that again is not taught. You know you have to take somebody that's in a, you know goes from a what we call LEAD, someone that's a leader educated to lead, an adaptive follower and a disgruntled follower. So we've got the LEAD. You have to those L's need to take those E's and literally pour into them and then that E has to formulate and understand that there's a psychology of leadership that they have to learn themselves, because they've got to learn that art. Yeah, this person's coming in and I need to treat this person or speak to this person this way, right Versus that way.
Sam Guthrie:So so you know, I leverage again my ADD, I leverage past experiences, but the key is you have to map them, those experiences, to the current situation and a lot of times not a lot of times sometimes you will see leaders that will try to jam a lesson that they learned from an experience you know into something they're doing today and it doesn't work Right. So, being able to properly map things that you have learned, those experiences, so, a, you can advance yourself as a leader and, b, you can share those experiences with others and if they're smart, they'll realize hey, I don't have to break my ankle in that pothole that Sam broke his ankle in, because he's told me where it is and what it looks like and how to avoid it. Now, if I want to bull breach my way through and break my ankle and be my own person, have at it. You won't be in my outfit.
John Ballinger:That's right.
Sam Guthrie:That's right.
Douglas Ford:Yeah, this is a quick question. So did you have a method you were talking about? You know you don't go to school and they give you all these tips and tricks and ideas. You have to kind of develop those stuff. What give you all these tips and tricks and ideas? You have to kind of develop those stuff. What was your methodology? What was your process of like discerning what tips, tricks? And so I didn't go to. I didn't.
Sam Guthrie:I went. You know I didn't go to school for for that. I didn't go to a course for that. I've been to leadership courses. So all of us have and and but, but I again hearken back to.
Sam Guthrie:I look at other successful people, other successful leaders, and try to get deep into my understanding of how they were leading. Why was their leadership effective? And there are some common denominators. There are also some unique things. You know, patton was a different leader than Bradley. They were both great leaders, but they were entirely different leaders. So I would take past leaders that I had seen and again to get started, just mimic them. My dad was the first one I'd mimic things. My dad, you eat last in line in the chow line. I mean're the last one to eat. That's just the rule for a leader. Um, and so I, I did. The techniques that I'm I've talked about before that are kind of missing now is people aren't sharing their experiences. People aren't, you know, don't have a rich base of experience to draw on or examples. So I, I looked at people and looked at techniques my dad used. I looked at techniques that other leaders I've used and I used something my brother was also in the Army only for 12 years he was artillery.
Sam Guthrie:So, he wasn't anything special, he's artillery and only did 12. And I love him dearly. But my brother told me one time that I met someone that gave him the example and he passed on somebody else's example to me. Here's the example, or the lesson is you can learn more from a bad leader than you can a good leader can a good leader, and the reason is because you are so scarred from the experience of being on the receiving end of a bad leader and everybody knows a bad manager and a bad leader is bad, bad news. But you can then say truly, say, okay, I'm putting that in my notebook because I'm never doing that. I'm never embarrassing a soldier in front of other soldiers or their family. Somebody did something. I'm going like man, that is the most horrible leadership, but you can learn from that. You can put that in your arsenal as something that you're not going to do.
Sam Guthrie:And so I think the answer to your question is I kind of, in the beginning, mimicked people that I saw being successful, and so I think the answer to your question is I kind of, in the beginning, mimicked people that I saw being successful and then I figured out where I fit in that and what my style was.
John Ballinger:Yeah, yeah, it's. It's tough being a leader today. I mean it's it's probably if you, if you look at the different generations. We talked about the expectation going in to people that have been damaged and as a leader, you have to learn how to heal them while you're also growing an organization and building it and guess what? The whole time you're doing that you have to develop yourself as a leader. You're that continuous development.
Sam Guthrie:Right, and you know we talked about COVID and what that did to people and you know leaders were just trying to pacify people to keep them from, you know, going stir crazy and you know all kinds of stuff. So I get it, but it did create expectations that now we're trying to unravel, like actually going to the office. Oh my God, you know I mean we're making people go to the office.
John Ballinger:You heard what Jamie said. At least you're not going to you know I mean we're making people go to the office.
Sam Guthrie:You heard what?
John Ballinger:at least, you're not going to, you know, going to jabuti or somewhere you know.
Sam Guthrie:I guess you heard the rant that jamie diamond with jp morgan, oh yeah, about people, and you want to know a good leader. Jamie diamond is he? Oh my god, and I'm gonna say this right now I never, I've never, met him, but I've been in the audience of his speaking and I've been around. I've worked in the corporate headquarters for about half of the five years I was in manhattan, uh, and he is original, he has no bs, uh, he's just. I mean he's just. I mean he's just everything. I mean he's competent beyond professionally competent, competent beyond anybody. Okay, so we all talk about leaders. You know you want a leader, you want to go and we're, we're on a demo mission. I hope the leader you know kind of competent that might be an important aspect of this mission.
Sam Guthrie:So being competent. And he is just on top of his game, but he's not arrogant about it, he cares about people he knows, he just he's just really sets good examples. Corporate. This is the pre the ceo of the biggest bank in the world and he wears walks in the corporate headquarters in blue jeans, cowboy cowboy boots, a white open collar shirt and a blazer.
John Ballinger:You know, you know he doesn't think he's, does he? He doesn't have a parking place with this big old gold roof on it.
Sam Guthrie:No, and, by the way, that's again I, I don't know Cause, I don't know him personally, but I'll bet there was a little method behind that madness, because we were all suits and ties for a long time. I mean, obviously, in fact, when I got there, and I think it was 15, I was wearing suit and tie, uh, we, I was wearing suit and tie, uh, and about a year and a half into it, um, there was kind of a you could see the movement of dress code and I mean, you couldn't wear nasty jeans or cut up jeans or anything like that, but a nice pair of jeans, you know, you, you could wear to work. And so I went to work every day in a pair of jeans, a pair of boots, a white shirt and a different colored blazer every year, and everybody used to call it my uniform. I said, yeah, and this is hard because you have to choose the color of the blazer, at least in the army, just put on the same thing every day. It's a lot easier.
Sam Guthrie:But yeah, Jamie Dimon, wonderful leader, wonderful. And you can disagree with him on his financial views of things or whatever, but as a leader sets the example, talks plain, honest Troops can tell when you're giving them the party line. Employees can tell when you're giving them the party line, and that's a death sentence for a leader. Why are we doing this? Because corporate headquarters said to do it, you know. I mean, mean, come on man, right, right.
John Ballinger:So, wrapping it up, if you could say here are some key traits that someone that's in a management position needs to learn go into leadership, what would those key traits be?
Sam Guthrie:uh, individualize your leadership, uh, with people, uh, you know, leading is is a difference between managing and leading, in my mind, is words like inspiring, motivating, and so I think, to transition from a manager trying to develop their leadership skills, I think you have to connect with your workforce. You have to connect with them as individuals and then you have to have them connect with your vision of them as a group. And so, managing, you manage individuals and you manage groups, but you don't as a manager.
Sam Guthrie:inspire is not one of the key attributes, right, so I think setting the example being technically, whatever your field is I'll use the word technical, but I don't mean that in a scientific way be technically beyond reproach. I mean you have to be on your game, and that includes part of that is saying not being afraid to say I don't, I don't know, and I'll find, but I'll find out. That's the key. Follow on, I don't know, that's what. That's what people are doing today. I don't know. You want to hear I don't know, but I'll find out and get back. Set the example. Connect with your workforce in an individual way and as a collective group with a vision of somewhere you're trying to get.
Sam Guthrie:Always be honest. I tell people sometimes to be honest with you. No, I'm always honest with you. Now, my style, I will tell you, is 99%. I will be painfully, bluntly honest. So I think the last part of it is develop a style. Start mimicking it first, if you need to that's what I did and then develop your own style and be authentic. I think is where I'm heading. You need to learn to be and because people will figure that out and they will follow you If you do those things, they will follow you even when they think you're headed down a dirt road because they know that, hey, I can tell the boss he's headed down a dirt road. And when he looks me in the eye and snaps back and goes, no, we're not. And then smiles, I just say, roger, and we keep moving right. So, no, we're not. And then smiles I just say Roger, and we keep moving Right. So, um, you know, those are what I think are. You know the real fundamentals.
John Ballinger:Right, I, I'll follow. Uh, doug has heard me say this a thousand times in military leadership. When I first started going through it, you know, I was taught feed them, clothe them, house them and pay them.
Sam Guthrie:Yeah.
John Ballinger:And make sure you do that every time. Yeah them and pay them. Yeah, and make sure you do that every time. Yeah, and if you fell at one of those four, something's going to happen to you. Your team, your team, will start looking at you saying do you really care about us?
Sam Guthrie:you can actually give someone a bad per. Oh, by the way, I I want to get this in lazy performance reviews by managers are creating these managers we have now that have absolutely no self-awareness as to what their faults are, their performance, and it's bad news if you connect with that person and you talk in a way that they know that you're out after their best interest, but you have to tell them for their own best interest. This year has been crap for you. You have not performed, and here's the specific things that you are going to have to work or you're not going to do. Well, right, so having the courage, that's another I guess I missed having the courage to tell people and they will love you for it.
Sam Guthrie:It's unbelievable. I've had any number of occasions just this year with people that I still, you know, call me about stuff and I'll tell them something that they don't want to hear or whatever. And they'll say, man, that's why I called you, because I knew you would tell me the ground truth, no matter how painful it was, and it's painful for me. These are my friends at this point, right To tell them that they've done something that I really think they maybe shouldn't have or they should be approaching a different way. So I think you know sorry to continue it, but I think that have the courage to tell it to, to advance your people by helping them be self-aware and and giving them the honesty, and people will tell you man, I thank you so much. No one has ever I've heard that, no one has ever told me that. And you're going like, oh, my god, you know right, yeah, so yeah, well, sam, thanks for being on first.
Sam Guthrie:Thanks for having you can tell I'm kind of kind of this is a good topic. This is a very important topic to everything to businesses, to our military, to our nation. Uh, leadership, uh, you know, we've always been looked to as a country where we really develop leaders. And if you look at Russian and I, by the way, I've I've planned, not commanded, but I've been a planner for an outfit that had a Russian airborne brigade in it and if you put their troops beside our troops at the troop level, the people are about the same, the human being is the same, but the standards and the leadership in the Russian Army and other armies all other armies compared to ours, and I'll say our military is ours is off the charts and I'll say our military is ours is off the charts. So I think that your topics helping business, people work through things or families is so important to our country because we need leaders If we're going to continue to be the leaders of the free world we got to have good leader.
John Ballinger:Yeah, did you hear that, douglas? We have to develop leaders so that we continue being the leaders of the free world.
Sam Guthrie:that's so important because, if not, that erodes right under our yeah, how can you be the leaders of the free world when nobody knows how to lead?
John Ballinger:yeah, yeah, well, sam, thanks again. Thank you, and we want our audience to remember the leaders out there. Remember, in order to lead your team, well, you must first lead. Thanks everyone, you.
